Total ignorance or deliberate forgery (Greece - Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)
Australian Macedonian Advisory Council
August 25, 2009
This article is a rebuttal to Gandeto´s "Macedonia was never a part of the ancient Hellenic city-states"
In his last delirium Gandeto reached such levels of Goebelism using audacious lies and blatant distortions of historical sources, that even the aforementioned famous Nazi propagandist would have been proud to sign himself; such a monumental masterpiece of the art of falsifying historical truth which has been recorded centuries ago by worldwide known ancient authors. Although he obeyed faithfully the basic principles of Goebelism, that is "repeat a lie so many times, till it seems like the truth" and "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it", the only thing that Gandeto achieved is his self-humiliation, since most of the historical sources that he invoked to back his outrageous claims prove him to be either a common liar or totally ignorant of ancient Greek history.
The choice and the judgement is yours. However, one thing is certain: After his limited study of the works of ancient Greek and Roman historians and the consequent ascertainment that it´s impossible to find not even a single one passage in favour of his artificial FYROM ethnicity, i.e. that ancient Macedonians were Slavs and spoke a Slavic language closely related to Bulgarian, like modern people from FYROM do, Gandeto resorted to the desperate "argument" of the non-Greekness of ancient Macedonians, as if this would legitimize his absurd assertions of ancient Macedonian origin.
Nevertheless, there is a lot of striking evidence against Gandeto´s fraudulent claims. Let´s now examine them one by one.Mr. Gandeto´s first lie:
"(a) Macedonia was never a part of any ancient Greek city-state, nor were the ancient Macedonians ever considered by the ancient Greeks or by themselves, to be Greek.And please, instead of shielding yourself with ambiguous interpretations from the 18th and the 19th century philhellenic writers, convince the readers with valid, persuasive arguments. Bring to the table solid, irrefutable evidence from the ancient Greeks themselves or their contemporary Greek or Roman biographers and chroniclers.
"All right, Gandeto, i´ll bring you the irrefutable evidence which you ask by both ancient Greek and Romans historians. I´ll start with king Alexander I of Macedon who clearly declared himself a Greek:
Hearing that, the generals straightway went with the men to the outposts. When they had come, Alexander said to them: "Men of Athens, I give you this message in trust as a secret which you must reveal to no one but Pausanias, or else you will be responsible for my undoing. In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery….. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian.
Herodotus "The Histories",9.45.1
Herodotus considered Macedonians undoubtedly as Greeks and Alexander was allowed to participate in the Olympic games, a privilege granted only to Greeks:
Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. Furthermore, the Hellenodicae who manage the contest at Olympia determined that it is so, for when Alexander chose to contend and entered the lists for that purpose, the Greeks who were to run against him wanted to bar him from the race, saying that the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners. Alexander, however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place. This, then, is approximately what happened.Herodotus "The Histories",5.22.1
However Alexander I was not the only Macedonian that participated in the Olympic games. King Archelaus participated not only in the Olympic but in the Pythian and the Delphic games, known Panhellenic events from which non-Greeks were excluded."Archelaus, son of Perdiccas, king of Macedon (413-399) and equestrian victor,about 460-399. Chariot victor at both Olympia (? 408) and Delphi.""Sport in the ancient world from A to Z" ,Mark Golden,page 14 http://books.google.com/books?id=wtHo5nlNuywC&pg=PA14
The Roman historian Gaius Julius Solinus on Archelaus participation in the Olympic games:"idem Pythias et Olympiacas palmas quadrigis adeptus" (The same won with his four-horse chariot Olympic and Pythian glory)Gaius Julius Solinus "De mirabilibus mundis" IX
If Alexander the Great didn´t consider himself as Greek, then why should he feel encouraged by the following accident?While he was thus deliberating what to do, it happened that a spring of water near the city of Xanthus in Lycia, of its own accord, swelled over its banks, and threw up a copper plate, upon the margin of which was engraven in ancient characters, that the time would come when the Persian empire should be destroyed by the Grecians. Encouraged by this accident, he proceeded to reduce the maritime parts of Cilicia and Phoenicia.Plutarch´s Parallel lives,"Alexander" 17
And since I mentioned Plutarch, have you ever heard of his work, the "Parallel lifes", where he compares the life of a prominent Roman with that of a counterpart Greek? If he didn´t consider Macedonians as Greek, then how is it he included in his work the lives of two famous Macedonians, Alexander the Great and Demetrius the Besieger? Unless you have any indication that he considered them as Romans!
If Plutarch considered Macedonians as non-Greeks would he ever write this below:But he said, "If I were not Alexander, I should be Diogenes"; that is to say: "If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. Even there it is said that there are certain holy men, a law unto themselves, who follow a rigid gymnosophy and give all their time to God; they are more frugal than Diogenes since they have no need of a wallet. For they do not store up food, since they have it ever fresh and green from the earth; the flowing rivers give them drink and they have fallen leaves and grassy earth to lie upon. Because of me even those faraway sages shall come to know of Diogenes, and he of them. And I also, like Diogenes, must alter the standard of coinage and stamp foreign states with the impress of Greek government.Plutarch,On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander,1a
Or this?
Now Demaratus the Corinthian, one of Philip's intimate friends, when he had seen Alexander in Susa, exclaimed with tears of joy that all the Greeks who had died before that hour had been deprived of a great joy, since they had not seen Alexander seated on the throne of Darius.And this?But if you examine the results of Alexander's instruction, you will see that he educated the Hyrcanians to respect the marriage bond, and taught the Arachosians to till the soil, and persuaded the Sogdians to support their parents, not to kill them, and the Persians to revere their mothers and not to take them in wedlock. O wondrous power of Philosophic Instruction, that brought the Indians to worship Greek gods!But when Alexander was civilizing Asia, Homer was commonly read, and the children of the Persians, of the Susianians, and of the Gedrosians learned to chant the tragedies of Sophocles and Euripides. And although Socrates, when tried on the charge of introducing foreign deities, lost his cause to the informers who infested Athens, yet through Alexander Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods of the Greeks. Plato wrote a book on the One Ideal Constitution, but because of its forbidding character he could not persuade anyone to adopt it; but Alexander established more than seventy cities among savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Grecian magistracies, and thus overcame its uncivilized and brutish manner of living.Thus Alexander's new subjects would not have been civilized, had they not been vanquished; Egypt would not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleuceia, nor Sogdiana its Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Greek city hard by.Plutarch,"On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander",1b
If you want some quotes from Arrian that show what Alexander himself and other Macedonians thought of their ethnic belonging, here you are: He also buried the Persian commanders and the Greek mercenaries who were killed fighting on the side of the enemy. But as many of them as he took prisoners he bound in fetters and sent them away to Macedonia to till the soil, because, though they were Greeks, they were fighting against Greece on behalf of the foreigners in opposition to the decrees which the Greeks had made in their federal council. To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip, and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians, present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia.Arrian, "Alexander´s anabasis",1a16
Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours. They will be fighting for pay - and not much of it at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops -Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe…Arrian, "Alexander´s anabasis",2a7
Some of them advanced some distance inland, breaking away from the main force, some in pursuit of this, and some of that. There a man appeared to them, wearing a Greek cloak, and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those who first sighted him said that they burst into tears, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken. They asked whence he came, who he was; and he said that he had become separated from Alexander's camp, and that the camp, and Alexander himself, were not very far distant. Shouting aloud and clapping their hands they brought this man to Nearchus; and he told Nearchus everything, and that the camp and the King himself were distant five days' journey from the coast.Arrian,"Indica"2,XXXIII
Do you believe that Diodorus didn´t consider Macedonians as Greeks?Every seat in the theatre was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak, and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Greeks, and had no need of a guard of spearmen.Diodorus Siculus,16.93.1
Alexander observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant campaigns. They had spent almost eight years among toils and dangers, and it was necessary to raise their spirits by an effective appeal if they were to undertake the expedition against the Gandaridae. There had been many losses among the soldiers, and no relief from fighting was in sight. The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and Greek clothing was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians, recutting the garments of the Indians.Diodorus Siculus,17.94.1
The Athenians were not ready to concede the leading position among the Greeks to Macedon…Similarly, the Thebans voted to drive out the garrison in the Cadmeia and not to concede to Alexander the leadership of the Greeks.Diodorus Siculus,17.3.1
First he dealt with the Thessalians, reminding them of his ancient relationship to them through Heracles and raising their hopes by kindly words and by rich promises as well, and prevailed upon them by formal vote of the Thessalian League to recognize as his the leadership of Greece which he had inherited from his father.Next he won over the neighbouring tribes similarly, and so marched down to Pylae where he convened the assembly of the Amphictyons and had them pass a resolution granting him the leadership of the Greeks.Even Demosthenes was included among the envoys; he did not, however, go with the others to Alexander, but turned back at Cithaeron and returned to Athens, whether fearful because of the anti-Macedonian course that he had pursued in politics, or merely wishing to leave no ground of complaint to the king of Persia. He was generally believed to have received large sums of money from that source in payment for his efforts to check the Macedonians, and indeed Aeschines is said to have referred to this in a speech when he taunted Demosthenes with his venality: At the moment, it is true, his extravagance has been glutted by the king's gold, but even this will not satisfy him; no wealth has ever proved sufficient for a greedy character.Then he called a meeting at Corinth of envoys and delegates, and when the usual representatives came he spoke to them in moderate terms and had them pass a resolution appointing him general plenipotentiary of the Greeks and undertaking themselves to join in an expedition against Persia seeking satisfaction for the offences which the Persians had committed against Greece.Diodorus Siculus,17.4.1
Do you like Polybius? Read what he has to say on the racial kinship between Aetolians, Achaeans and Macedonians in the speech of Lyciscus the Acarnanian who addressed Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, the Aetolian envoys, at the assembly of Sparta:A mighty similarity exists, no doubt, in your minds, and no diversity at all! Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader; now a war of slavery is threatening Greece against men of another race, whom you think to bring against Philip, but have really unconsciously brought against yourselves and all Greece. For just as men in the stress of war, by introducing into their cities garrisons superior in strength to their own forces, while successfully repelling all danger from the enemy, put themselves at the mercy of their friends,--just so are the Aetolians acting in the present case. For in their desire to conquer Philip and humble Macedonia, they have unconsciously brought such a mighty cloud from the west, as for the present perhaps will overshadow Macedonia first, but which in the sequel will be the origin of heavy evils to all Greece.Polybius,"Histories" 9.37
Again, you bitterly denounced Alexander, because, when he believed himself to be wronged, he punished Thebes: but of his having exacted vengeance of the Persians for their outrages on all the Greeks you made no mention at all; nor of his having released us all in common from heavy miseries, by enslaving the barbarians, and depriving them of the supplies which they used for the ruin of the Greeks,--sometimes pitting the Athenians against the ancestors of these gentlemen here, at another the Thebans; nor finally of his having subjected Asia to the GreeksPolybius,"Histories" 9.34
Do you prefer Roman authors? What about Livius? He described the events that took place at the Panetolion, the assembly of all the Aetolians as follows:"The assembly of the Aetolians, which they call Panaetolium, was to meet on a certain day. In order to be present at this, the king's ambassadors hastened their journey, and Lucius Furius Purpureo also arrived, deputed by the consul. Ambassadors from the Athenians,likewise, came to this assembly. The Macedonians were first heard, as with them the latest treaty had been made"The view of the Macedonian envoy about Romans and their relations with Aetolians:"If foreigners who are separated from us to a greater distance by their language, manners, and laws, than by the distance by sea and land, are allowed to get footing here, it is madness to hope that any thing will continue in its present state... Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times."Titus Livius,"The history of Rome"
Do you need something more, Gandeto? Isn´t this clear juxtaposition between Romans, as "barbarians" and foreigners and Macedonians as men speaking the same language and sharing the same culture with the rest of the Greeks, more eloquent than anything else? This community of language between Macedonians and other Greeks is affirmed by another Roman historian, Quintus Curtius Rufus:In pursuit of Bessus the Macedonians had arrived at a small town inhabited by the Branchidae who,on the orders of Xerxes, when he was returning from Greece, had emigrated from Miletus and settled in this spot. This was necessary because, to please Xerxes, they had violated the temple called the Didymeon. The culture of their forebears had not yet disappeared, though they were by now bilingual and the foreign tongue was gradually eroding their own. So it was with great joy that they welcomed Alexander to whom they surrendered themselves and their city. Alexander called a meeting of the Milesians in his force,for the Milesians bore a longstanding grudge against the Branchidae as a clan. Since they were the people betrayed by the Branchidae. Alexander let them decide freely on their case, asking if they preferred to remember their injury or their common origin. But when there was a difference of opinion over this, he declared that he would himself consider the best course of action. When the Branchidae met him the next day, he told them to accompany him. On reaching the city,he himself entered through the gate with a unit of light-armed troops. The phalanx had been ordered to surround the city walls and when the signal was given, to sack this city which provided refuge for traitors, killing the inhabitants to a man. The Branchidae who were unarmed, were butchered throughout the city, and NEITHER THE COMMUNITY OF LANGUAGE nor the olive-branches and entreaties of the suppliants could curb the savagery. Finally the Macedonians dug down to the foundations of the walls in order to demolish them and leave not a single trace of the cityQuintus Curtius Rufus,"The history of Alexander" VII.5.28-34
As generally happens, too, past omens had been brought back to mind by the present worry. They recalled that at the start of his reign Darius had issued orders for the shape of the scabbard of the Persian scimitar to be altered to the shape used by the Greeks, and that the Chaldeans had immediately interpreted this as meaning that rule over the Persians would pass to those people whose arms Darius had copiedQuintus Curtius Rufus,"The history of Alexander" III.3.6
Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe." To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out" he said.Quintus Curtius Rufus,"The history of Alexander" V.6.1
Gandeto´s second lie:"Macedonia was never a member of any Hellenic League. Macedonia was not a member of the Greek Amphictyonic League either. Fact is that membership into these leagues was reserved for Hellenes only. And since Macedonians were not considered Hellenes, they were not admitted into these leagues. (2) you will be unable to prove Aeschines, Theopompus and Pausanias wrong, for not including Macedonia on their lists of the Amphictyonic people of Greece."
google_protectAndRun("ads_core.google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad);
Sorry for breaking the news to you, but Macedonia was indeed member of the Amphictyonic League:The members of the Council then passed a decree admitting Philip and his descendants to the Amphictyonic Council and according him two votes which formerly had been held by the Phocians, now defeated in war
google_protectAndRun("ads_core.google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad);
Sorry for breaking the news to you, but Macedonia was indeed member of the Amphictyonic League:The members of the Council then passed a decree admitting Philip and his descendants to the Amphictyonic Council and according him two votes which formerly had been held by the Phocians, now defeated in war
The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians.Pausanias,"Description of Greece".10.3.1
Gandeto´s third lie"you will be unable to prove Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, and Dionysius wrong. These biographers have stated that Greece commences at the Ambracian Gulf, and terminates at the river PeneusThere is no record of either side voicing displeasure regarding this rule. And (c) in antiquity people knew that the boundary between Macedonia and Greece was the river Peneus and mount Olympus; to the south were the Greek tribes and to the north was Macedonia."Gandeto here is actually trying to clutch at straws. Leaving aside the fact that Strabo stated that: "Macedonia,off course,is a part of Greece":Strabo,"Geography",7,329
I can´t though understand how is it that he ignores that:a)While Greece and Cyprus are two different countries yet no one questioned ever the Greekness of Cypriotsb)
While Greece and Asia Minor are two different countries,no one questioned ever the Greekness of Asia Minor Greeks of Ephesus,Hallicarnassus,Miletus e.t.cc)While Germany and Austria are two different countries no one claimed ever that Germans and Austrians are from different stock and speak different languages.I could continue with many other similar examples but I choose to show what was the place of Macedonia in the Greek world using the following quotes.Alexander´s letter to Darius:"Your ancestors came into Macedonia and the rest of Greece and treated us ill, without any previous injury from us. I, having been appointed commander-in-chief of the Greeks, and wishing to take revenge on the Persians, crossed over into Asia, hostilities being begun by youArrian,"Alexander´s anabasis" 2.XIV
"This is a sworn treaty made between Hannibal... on the one part; and Xenophanes, son of Cleomachus of Athens, sent to us by King Philip... The oath is taken in the presence... of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the rest of Greece… On their parts also King Philip and the Macedonians and such other Greeks as are his allies…"Polybius,"Histories",7.9.1-2
Not being able to say anything in defence of any of these acts, you talk pompously about your having resisted the invasion of Delphi by the barbarians, and allege that for this Greece ought to be grateful to you. But if for this one service some gratitude is owing to the Aetolians; what high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks? For that Greece would have been continually involved in great dangers, if we had not had the Macedonians and the ambition of their kings as a barrier, who is ignorant?Polybius,"Histories",9.35
Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world.Diodorus Siculus,16.95.1
The Persians also considered Macedonians as Greeks. The Persian general Mardonius, addressing to king Darius tries to convince him that he could easily won a war against the Greeks due to their weakness as follows:Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly. When they have declared war against each other, they come down to the fairest and most level ground that they can find and fight there, so that the victors come off with great harm; of the vanquished I say not so much as a word, for they are utterly destroyed. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight.Herodotus "The Histories",7.9b.1
Reading this quote of Demosthenes should we conclude that even Peloponnesus was not Greek?Who raised the cry that Philip was forming coalitions in Greece and Peloponnesus while you slept?Demosthenes,"On the embassy",19.303
Mr.Gandeto´s fourth lie:"you will have no answer as to why Thucydides found no room for Macedonia on his list of states on either side of the warring parties in the Peloponnesian War. Macedonia is found neither on the Athenian, nor on the Lacedaemonian side. In book II of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides gives a catalogue of the states ranged on either side as follows:With the Lacedaemonians: All the Peloponnesians except the Argives and Achaeans, the Megareans, Locrians, Boeotians, Phocians, Ambraciots, Leucadians, and Anactoreans.With the Athenians: Chians, Lesbians, Plataeans, Messenians of Neopactus, most of the Acarnanians, the Corcyraeans, Zacynthians, with certain islands and colonies."Not only this is one of the most ridiculous argument because many other Greek regions didn´t fight in the Peloponnesian war and consequently their names are not in this list, but furthermore Macedonians fought on this war as allies of Sparta:Brasidas and Perdiccas started on a second joint expedition into Lyncus against Arrhabaeus; the latter with the forces of his Macedonian subjects, and a corps of heavy infantry composed of Hellenes domiciled in the country; the former with the Peloponnesians whom he still had with him and the Chalcidians, Acanthians, and the rest in such force as they were able. In all there were about three thousand Hellenic heavy infantry, accompanied by all the Macedonian cavalry with the Chalcidians, near one thousand strong, besides an immense crowd of barbarians.Thucydides "The Peloponnesian war" 4.124.1
Gandeto´s fifth lie: "One cannot substitute and equate the words of a king (Philip V) "My ancestors Philip II and Alexander the Great conquered Greece", with "but Macedonians had same names as Greeks", nonsense."What are your comments on this other nonsense, stated by Philip V:"For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law."Polybius,"The histories",18.4.8
If you had ever complete your ancient Greek history course you would have learned that always the most powerful of all the Greek states tried to impose its dominance over the entire Greek world, while all the others fought to avoid enslavement or to liberate themselves from the Athenian, Spartan or Theban yoke.The Lacedemonians liberated Greece from Athenian yoke:"On the next day the ambassadors reported to the Assembly the terms on which the Lacedaemonians offered to make peace; Theramenes acted as spokesman for the embassy, and urged that it was best to obey the Lacedaemonians and tear down the walls. And while some spoke in opposition to him, a far greater number supported him, and it was voted to accept the peace. After this Lysander sailed into Piraeus, the exiles returned, and the Peloponnesians with great enthusiasm began to tear down the walls to the music of flute-girls, thinking that that day was the beginning of freedom for Greece."Xenophon,"Hellenica",2.2.1
Then it was the Athenian turn to liberate Greece from the Lacedaemonians:"What need is there to tell more of the story? For he collected a naval force of Rhodes, won a victory over the Lacedaemonians in a sea-fight, deposed them from their sovereignty, and set the Hellenes free."Isocrates,"To Philip",5.62
It was about time for the Theban hegemony:"And so completely have their fortunes shifted, that whereas they once hoped that all Hellas would be subject to them, now they rest upon you the hopes of their own deliverance. Therefore I think that the Thebans also will do with alacrity whatever you command or advise."Isocrates,"To Philip",5.53
All the enslaved Greeks hated their masters, either they were the Lacedaemonians:"The Lacedaemonians were the leaders of the Hellenes, not long ago, on both land and sea, and yet they suffered so great a reversal of fortune when they met defeat at Leuctra that they were deprived of their power over the Hellenes, and lost such of their warriors as chose to die rather than survive defeat at the hands of those over whom they had once been masters…they are distrusted by all the Peloponnesians ; they are hated by most of the Hellenes"Isocrates,"To Philip",5.47
Or the Athenians:"Out of war peace gains fresh stability, but to refuse to abandon repose for war is not so sure a method of avoiding danger. We must believe that the tyrant city that has been established in Hellas has been established against all alike, with a programme of universal empire, part fulfilled, part in contemplation; let us then attack and reduce it, and win future security for ourselves and freedom for the Hellenes who are now enslaved."Thucydides,"The Peloponnesian war",1.124.1
Mr.Gandeto´s sixth lie:"The next catalogue which throws light on the subject is that of forces under the command of Leonidas at Thermopylae. They are enumerated by Herodotus, Pausanias, and Deodorus as follows: Peloponnesians, Thespians, Thebans, Phocians,and Locrians"Mr.Gandeto´s "arguments" start getting even more hilarious! I see absent from this list many other Greek city/states or regions, like Aetolians, Acarnanians, Eurytanians, Euboeans. Does it mean they were not Greeks? Or should we question the Greekness of Cretans because they didn´t contribute to the Greek cause against the Persians:"But the Cretans, when the Greeks appointed to deal with them were trying to gain their aid, acted as I will show. They sent messengers to Delphi, inquiring if it would be to their advantage to help the Greeks… When this was brought to the ears of the Cretans, they would have nothing to do with aiding the Greeks".Herodotus."The histories",7.169.1
I also didn´t see you claiming Corcyreans were not Greeks,mr.Gandeto:"As for the Corcyraeans, their answer to the envoys and their acts were as I will show….They were, however, also ready with an excuse which they could make to the Greeks, and in the end they made it; when the Greeks blamed them for sending no help, they said that they had manned sixty triremes, but that they could not round Malea because of the Etesian winds."Herodotus."The histories",7.168.1
And what about Thebans and Thessalians that actually allied with the Persians?"During the Persian king XERXES' invasion of Greece (480-479 B.C.), Thebes was the major Greek city to submit to the Persians, and it contributed soldiers and a base of operations for the Persian war effort. After the Persian defeat,Thebes fell into deep discredit". "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World" by David Sacks,page 243
"Thebes and other Northern Greek states, including Locrian Opus, were disgraced for their active collabo¬ration with the Persians.""Oral performance and its context " by C. J. Mackie,page 74
Gandeto´s seventh lie:"Homer: In the catalogue of the ships in the second book of the Iliad, Acarnania, Aetolia and Thessaly are the most northern districts mentioned. The others are Boetia, Phocis, Locris, Euboea,Athens,Salamis,Argos,Mycinae,Laconia,Messenia,Arcadia,Crete,Rhodes,and Isles."I can´t decide whether this is another celebration of ignorance or a deliberate attempt to present fraudulent claims as reasonable arguments based on historical facts, because such an ultimate ignorance and stunning lack of historical knowledge is unforgivable for an alleged "historian" and author of various historical books like Mr.Gandeto!I can´t believe Mr.Gandeto indeed ignores that Macedonia didn´t exist in the time of the Trojan War!First and foremost, it is generally accepted amongst Mr.Gandeto´s colleagues (i.e. the historians, yes,I know, someone could hardly believe it!) that the Trojan War was fought around 12th-13th BC century:"The Hel¬lenistic writer Eratosthenes grounded his efforts to fix precise dating of the Trojan War to 1184 B.C.E.""The Trojan War" by Carol G. Thomas and Craig Conant,page 93
"the date of the Trojan War,1193-1184 BC""In search of the Trojan War" by Michael Wood,page 57
"Nevertheless the temptation is over¬whelming to conjecture that the excavated Troy (whether Troy 6 or Troy 7) must be the city of Priam that fell to the Greeks; as for chronology, the date of the conflict was ca. 1250-1200 B.C., not too far from the traditionally ac¬cepted date of 1184 B.C.""Classical Mythology" by Mark P. O. Morford and Robert J. Lenardon,page 20
"The Trojan War is set at the end the Mycenaean Bronze Age, which refers to Greek areas of the Mediterranean during the fifteenth through thirteenth centuries BCE.""The Trojan War: literature and legends from the Bronze Age to the present" by Diane P. Thompson,page 15
And all the historians accept as well that ancient Macedonians emerged on the historical scene around 7th-9th BC century, not prior to 814 BC:"The kingdom of Macedonia, first founded 814 B.C., by Caranus, a descendant of Hercules, and a native of Argos""Lemprière's Classical dictionary of proper names mentioned in ancient authors" by John Lemprière,page 346
"A meeting place for the various peoples of the Balkan Peninsula for thousands of years, modern Macedonia roughly corresponds to the ancient Macedonian kingdom founded in the seventh century B.C.""Miniature empires: a historical dictionary of the newly independent states" by James Minahan page 175
"From the 7th century BC onwards Makednoi under the leadership of the Temenid dynasty, started to move from the highlands of present Greek western Macedonia to the southeast""Encyclopedia of ancient Greece" by Nigel Guy Wilson page 439
"The first known king of Macedonia was Caranus (also called Charon) who ruled from 808 to 778 BC and established a kingdom that lasted 400 years""Macedonia" by Mary Lee Knowlton,page 21
Mr.Gandeto´s eighth lie:"that not only was Macedonia not Greek or part of ancient Greece and neither was Epirus or Thessaly."Although such outrageously ridiculous assertions don´t even deserve a rebuttal, this passage from Polybius below shows explicitly whether Epirus and Thessaly were part of ancient Greece or not:"Why was it again, do you suppose, that Leonidas and his men started forth to a voluntary and certain death? Was it not that they might have the glory of being the forlorn hope, not only of their own freedom, but of that of all Greece also? And it would indeed be a worthy action for descendants of such heroes as these to make a league with the barbarians now, and to serve with them; and to war against Epirotes, Achaeans, Acarnanians, Boeotians, Thessalians, and in fact against nearly every Greek state except Aetolians!"Polybius,"The histories",9.38
Modern historians don´t doubt ancient Epirotans werer Greeks:"That the Epirotic tribes and the Macedonian tribes spoke Greek in the fifth century B.C., and indeed much earlier, has been argued in CAH III.The conclusive evidence is in the decrees of the Molossian state c. 369 B.C.,which are entirely Greek in language, onomastics and tribal forms. The names of the persons were given to them in the fifth century, presumably by Greek parents and grandparents, and the names of the tribes had no doubt a very long history""The Cambridge ancient history",2.000,Volume 6 by David Malcolm Lewis,John Boardman,Simon Hornblower,page 433
"Epirus Northwest region of mainland Greece, bordered on the west by the Adriatic Sea and on the east by the Pindus mountain range. Epirus (Greek: epeiros, "the main¬land") was a humid and forested region, inhabited by 14 tribes or dans, some of Dorian-Greek descent and others of non-Greek, Illyrianan blood. The ruling clan, the Molossians, claimed to be descended from the hero Neoptolemus"."A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World" by David Sacks,page 91
"Pyrrhus King of the Molossian tribes in the northwest¬ern Greek region called EPIRUS, reigning 297-272 i.e…Pyr¬rhus was the first Greek commander ever to fight the Romans, and is best remembered for his "Pyrrhic victory""A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World" by David Sacks,page 200
"We have a similar problem in regard to Epirus, where some had thought the language of the people was Illyrian. In Phlutarch´s Pyrrhus, 1.3 reference was made to the local phone, which to me means "dialect" of Greek: it is so in this instance because Plutarch is saying that Achilles was called in the local phone "Aspetos". The word "Aspetos" elsewhere was peculiar to Greek epic,but it survived in Epirus in normal speech. It is of course a Greek and not an Illyrian word. See Hammond, Epp. 525 ff. for Greek being the language of central Epirus in the fifth century BC"."Alexander the Great,a reader",by Ian Worthington,page 22
"Greek tradition is unanimous in that the homeland of the speakers of Boeotian from which they invaded Central Greece, was in Thessaliotis in southwestern Thessaly, whereas the homeland of the speakers of Doric and Northwest Greek is traditionally placed in northern Thessaly(Histiacotis) and Epirus""Greeks and pre-Greeks: Aegean prehistory and Greek heroic tradition" by Margalit Finkelberg,page 130
Even your beloved Eugene Borza accepts that the Epirotic tribe of Molossians was of Greek origin:"Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians.If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Mo¬lossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis."Eugene Borza,"In the shadow of Olympus",page 78
By Kapetan Doukas
http://www.macedonian.com.au/forum
